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Installfest notes

theSamo's picture

With 2 Installfests in planning and one still in early talks, all of them are in universities. This direction - to spread FOSS and Free Culture into prospective IT crowd - is obviously the right thing to do nowadays. However, the experience of the first fest in that series of "College Invasion" was not very pleasant for many participating volunteers (check slashproc) - even considred by some to be not quite successful.

I think we should start to re-consider our measures of success and failure in light of our new goals.

In the GUC installfest, We ended with tons of Ubuntu/XP laptops, which by our former measures in public fests a great succuess. Many of thoses users knew how to manage these systems, many focused on the power of the command-line (terminal) - thanks to a great demo by Basssist -. All of these hinting at a very successful installfest indeed, but how come some volunteers didn't feel the same way.

In short, what really happened was this:

  • Many of the students who attended, thought it was a lecture. or something obligatory.
  • We lost many of them after the first talk. (which was too short and incoherent).
  • Most of the people who stayed after that were intersted in that OS with the 3d effects, not that Free Powerful OS.
  • The event was not very serious, most people walked out with almost no knowledge about Free Software and how it works and the open source business model.

I believe what we achieved in that installfest was diffrent from what we should have aimed for. A better understanding of FOSS and knowledge freedom among prospective Software developers of our society. While it might seem a grat success that all these guys had linux when they walked out. That they knew how to use it. We didn't tell them "Why they should be using it".

The GUC sort of supports OSS,They have Suse in the labs i believe. Therefore it's not a very proprietary universtiy (i.e these students wouldn't be frowned upon by there professors for using free software). In another university, the damage could have been more in a more Proprietary M$-infested place, where Free Software is seen as a funny thing I believe.

I just thought we should discuss that sort of things before upcoming installfests.

Comments

phaeronix's picture

good critique

First let me thank you, at last some one who actually participated has spoken up with some actual arguments.

Second I'd like to ask you: why didn't you present these points a little earlier? Or even as early as before the event. Then we might have been able to perform a lot better, from your perspective.

Third let us begin discussing.

  • I know of only two people who complained after the event: Boody and Fred. I can identify with Boody's frustration because he faced an unpleasant challenge towards the end of the event. Otherwise he was totally happy. Fred's reasons to be upset are unclear to me uptil now. I encourage both to join this discussion. After all, we learn from mistakes.
  • Confusing the event with a timed lecture is a repeating problem. It also happened in the first install fest where people waited at the door of the sakia more than an hour in advance.

This was the exact reason why I arranged for an actual lecture to absorb these people in. Which brings us to the next point.

  • The obvious choice for an introductory lecture was the FOSS presentation. Diaa insisted he wanted to do it for various reasons. I accepted because he had supposedly given the presentation more than four times before. However I regret to say it was a mistake. Diaa's performance was lackluster, he was unclear and unfocused. Frankly even I didn't understand what he said. So you have a point there. Diaa sorry but this is IMHO.

Which again brings us to the next point.

  • To reabsorb the lost interest of the attendees I had to show something sparkling. It was first planned for fred to show xgl as part of the desktop discussion group. But I think if we waited that long, we would have lost the rest of the attendance. It was also planned that fred would have the udeb files to install xgl for everyone, so that they get what they see, but due to some fangled reason fred didn't deliver on that.

His explanation was that he runs ubuntu unstable on his desktop, and we were installing dapper, so he installed dapper in qemu and downloaded the packages inside. Then he couldn't get the packages outside the vm's disk. We didn't have a proper net connection as you all know so we couldn't give them XGL.

Fred also was responsible for messing up the printing of the arabic pamphlets, which were printed left to right.

The way I see it we are the ones who should be angry with Fred not the other way round. But being a volunteer group, we just thanked everyone for their efforts, and overlooked the mistakes. We all make mistakes and learn from them.

Fred if you are reading this please reconsider your decision to disengage from the group.

  • Don't forget that one of our main aims is to create awareness of FOSS in the first place. As you said we achieved this. As proof, Cvirus tells me that lots of people are looking for linux support from him and from Fred. That means those people we reached to actually continued playing with that new shiny system we installed for them.

Actually, in the middle of the event I took some time out and went for a stroll outside. Some of the people who had linux installed for them and received the ubuntu CD, were installing it for other people.

  • I clearly remember that part of my XGL presentation was about the stableness and greatness of linux. No viruses, no worms, lots of choice etc... I spoke in brief about these things.
  • I don't think the business model of FOSS is something we should talk to CS students about. Unless it's a side discussion with someone who is interested.
  • Who is speaking about damage? We aren't fighting any evil or anything, stop thinking like we are at war. We provide awareness and choice. Let people choose what they like best.
theSamo's picture

thanks

I didn't want to discuss the shortcomings of certain volunteers since I wasn't that involved in the preparation, but rather the shortcomings of us as a group. it's a good thing that you raise them though before future installfests.

for your last three points:

  • I admit i forgot that.
  • The opensource business model is a must. esp. for older students.
  • By damage, I mean misunderstanding of the nature of Linux and FLOSS in general.
Conceptor's picture

I didn't insist ,you have asked that from me.

I didn't insist ,you have asked that from me(when student start to have their seats), there was no preparation for the presentation also , we had to modify the date and the host place front of the audience.

however there were no specific topic to discuss just open discussion to have student wondering what is foss and a lot of other interesting questions.

If you didn't understand; don't blame me ,you were thinking on the Desktop and xgl presentation ;) (I will not talk about the quality of the whole thing).


Diaa Radwan

phaeronix's picture

No you specifically called

No you specifically called me to take the presentation from Bassist.

No preparation is your fault.

Please do talk about the quality of the whole thing.

Conceptor's picture

No you specifically called

No you specifically called me to take the presentation from Bassist.

this is true as group discussion ,not as lecture.

you have asked me to give it as lecture,when students expected so .

group discussion needs no slides and needs no preparation , but giving presentation requires preparation. and it have to be on the schedule


Diaa Radwan

phaeronix's picture

You called me specifically

You called me specifically to take the PRESENTATION. You knew of the plan to give it as a main presentation on the stage using the projectors. And you were on time, just not prepared. Anyway what happened has happened I am not putting you on trial or anything. I won't talk about this any longer. Let's get back on topic. Let's make this useful.

MSameer's picture

What I know.

is that you Diaa asked to take over the presentation and you said that you gave it multiple times and one of them was Central el Fawala.

What I understand is that you knew that it was a presentation.

I'm participating no more in this debate. The whole thing suck.

You had a successful fest but you had some bad points like fest 2004 and fest 2005. Adress these bad points if you want but I wasn't there to say a word.

Out anyways

I am out anyways so don't bother.. Probably you will get a more stable and reliable fest without me..

See? After these 2 criticizing posts, what are you doing? Debating on wether Diaa asked for it or was asked to do it.. This is 5 years old kids stuff..

Also I would like you to note that Fred had to do about 70% of the work.. You can confirm this with people like CVirus and Mnabil.

-Fred had to do the flyer. -Fred had to print the flyer (but was moved to CVirus). -Fred had to design a tshirt. -Fred had to print the tshirts. -Fred had to design the pamphlets. -Fred had to print the pamphlets (but was moved to CVirus). -Fred said he didn't have arabic support for more than 10 times, but still, he was the one supposed to print them correctly, although they were sent to me messed up. -Fred had to take some people to go get their PCs because they didn't get them in the morning. -Fred had to go from the 5th Settlement to Madinet Nasr to Masr El Gedida then back to the 5th Settlement just to bring missing stuff because the ones who were actually supposed to get them, simply didn't (but they still don't get any blame). -Fred had to go get food for those who were cutting wires at the GUC. -Fred had to return people to their homes. -Fred had to get network wires. -Fred had to go to the GUC about 4 times to set up things and approvals for the fest, because simply we were coordinated to an unreliable source. -Fred had to host the .debs for people to install packages, but some other people couldn't have a network installed (no need for internet connection) so it was useless anyways. But if there was a network, Fred did the mistake of taking Phaeron's word that he was going to be able to get the .debs out of the virtual machine's HD. Right? -And after all, he demonstrated everything he promised to (unlike other people who backed off but don't seem to be getting any blame). -If Fred thinks of anything else that he did, he is going to post it. But it seems like doing favors is the worst thing to do, because you get slapped back anyways. Either your favor succeeds or fails. Fred thanks the LUG members for their cooperation, their way of aiming high, the way they are organized, the way they flame at new luggers, etc..

-Fred

MSameer's picture

Fred didn't have to design

Fred didn't have to design the tshirts or pamphlets. Fred wanted to do so because he wanted something better _and_he_did_this_although_I_asked_him_not_to_do_it_ so you can't blame us here.

Fred did a lot of things and a thank you is not even enough.

This is the first time I know that you had no Arabic support.

YoussefAssad's picture

If you don't like the work, don't volunteer for it

We volunteer because we're willing to, not because it gives us a convenient reason to whine.

Suck it up and come learn about teamwork in EGLUG is my recommendation. You've got a good brain but no one will want to work with a bad teamplayer.

--

Exactly

You are right.. And this is what I did.. Didn't I? EGLUG is not teamwork, or at least isn't what I know about teamwork, teamwork is to work together, not come on the day of the fest give the presentation, fool around, get to know a couple of chicks from the GUC and leave.. while other people have been working their asses off for the past 30 hours.

phaeronix's picture

Do you have someone

Do you have someone particular in mind ?

you think im gonna keep

you think im gonna keep pointing out what everyone did wrong like you do (also like a little kid)? "you did this! you did that" and then burst in tears? hehe, nope i won't take 10 years off my age just to satisfy you.

phaeronix's picture

Please format.

Hi fred. Do you always like to torture people by making them read your unformatted comments?

- I am out anyways so don't bother.. Probably you will get a more stable and reliable fest without me.. See? After these 2 criticizing posts, what are you doing? Debating on wether Diaa asked for it or was asked to do it.. This is 5 years old kids stuff..

It might be kid stuff indeed, that we are trying to learn from our mistakes, maybe only kids make mistakes. But isn't it more kid stuff that you cry out foul and stomp out of the field, giving the impression that you have been forced into something against your will.

- Also I would like you to note that Fred had to do about 70% of the work.. You can confirm this with people like CVirus and Mnabil.

Assuming you did 70% of the work, you got thanked, and if you had come to the celebration afterwards you would have been thanked again. That's all the payback you can expect in a volunteer community.

-Fred had to do the flyer.

Thank you.

-Fred had to print the flyer (but was moved to CVirus).

Thank you. Thanks Cvirus.

-Fred had to design a tshirt.

You chose to design another Tshirt against the will of the group because you thought the old design was unprofessionsal. I gave everyone the freedom to wear whichever design they wanted because it is a minor thing. Besides what's to design about a solitary penguin ?

-Fred had to print the tshirts.

Thank you.

-Fred had to design the pamphlets.

The pamphlets were already designed and translated thanks to previous teams and to Boody.

-Fred had to print the pamphlets (but was moved to CVirus).

Thank you. Thanks Cvirus.

-Fred said he didn't have arabic support for more than 10 times, but still, he was the one supposed to print them correctly, although they were sent to me messed up.

You are member of eglug and can't get arabic support? OMG ! Oh, why didn't you move it to Cvirus?

-Fred had to take some people to go get their PCs because they didn't get them in the morning.

Thank you. You have a car and they lived somewhat nearby.

-Fred had to go from the 5th Settlement to Madinet Nasr to Masr El Gedida then back to the 5th Settlement just to bring missing stuff because the ones who were actually supposed to get them, simply didn't (but they still don't get any blame).

I didn't count the trips I had to make to the GUC, but I am sure they were more than yours, and definitely cost more because I don't have a car. Others did the same. Still we don't complain.

We all had to travel half the way around the country, some using cars and some using transportation. I don't see anyone complaining. And we're not blaming anyone for anything. We're freaking identifying weaknesses and trying to remedy them.

-Fred had to go get food for those who were cutting wires at the GUC.

Thank you. You were also going to get some other things I think. You had Cvirus with you and someone else.

-Fred had to return people to their homes.

Thank you. You have a car and they lived somewhat nearby.

-Fred had to get network wires.

I Think that was with the food trip, because Mnabil had forgotten them. So what ?

-Fred had to go to the GUC about 4 times to set up things and approvals for the fest, because simply we were coordinated to an unreliable source.

BTW aren't you a GUC student? So you like usually go there to study and stuff. As to talking to the CS Dean, regrettably all you did was create confusion. In the end we had to stick to our "unreliable source", which teaches us later on to not coordinate with different people.

-Fred had to host the .debs for people to install packages, but some other people couldn't have a network installed (no need for internet connection) so it was useless anyways. But if there was a network.

The main planned aim for the debs was moving them on usb storage, because we were afraid we wouldn't have internet connection.

-Fred did the mistake of taking Phaeron's word that he was going to be able to get the .debs out of the virtual machine's HD. Right?

I specifically came to you asking for the qemu disk image, and you told me you deleted it, so what was I supposed to do ?

-And after all, he demonstrated everything he promised to (unlike other people who backed off but don't seem to be getting any blame).

Anyway it's good you demonstrated everything you planned. We're not blaming anyone, but if you feel there was a weakness somewhere please point it out.

-If Fred thinks of anything else that he did, he is going to post it. But it seems like doing favors is the worst thing to do, because you get slapped back anyways. Either your favor succeeds or fails. Fred thanks the LUG members for their cooperation, their way of aiming high, the way they are organized, the way they flame at new luggers, etc..

If you do remember other things you did, be sure you are thanked for them. You are welcome.

theSamo's picture

The comments have gone way

The comments have gone way off-topic. It's turning into a flame war.

Actually the only comment on the topic is the first one by phaeron (not all of it)...

I hope further discussions are regarding the issues raised in the blogpost.

kthxbai

what? seriously, you

what? seriously, you weren't expecting this? this is EGLUG man..

theSamo's picture

no, I wasn't. Honestly,

no, I wasn't.

Honestly, you puzzle me. I don't get what you want or why you left the lug in the first place. In your posts you answer to phaeron's allegations. but i'd like to know why you didn't like the fest.

i stated my reasons

i stated my reasons before, not all of them of course because i was interrupted by a bunch or flamers..

YoussefAssad's picture

I don't want you in the LUG

When you feel that everyone in this group deserves your disrespect ("this is EGLUG man") then the time is right for you to leave.

Many people have worked hard to make what you feel deserves your scorn. Thank you for doing whatever it was you did for the GUC event. Now please stop posting here and find another group, or start one, which suits you better.

Don't reply to this, leave. All I've seen is scorn, derision, belittling other people. No more of that please. I personally have been respectful to you only to have you go all armchair critic.

You're smart, but you're rude and not constructive, and you don't play well with others. Out. Thanks. Bye.

--

first of all, i left the

first of all, i left the lug 3 days after the fest.. so it's way before the time was right.. but still, it doesn't give a reason for some people to start blaming me while im not around..

no one in this group have seen any disrespect from me nor deserves it -you can ask every single member of the lug if it suits you- until i saw a finger pointing at me claiming i didn't do what i was supposed to do (although it was completely voluntary work).. a bit contradicting, don't you think? the words "supposed to do" and "voluntary"..

i never asked nor cared about being thanked, i never even thought about it -you can still check with the members of the lug who got to know me well-, until this finger pointed at me..

all you've seen was scorn, derision, belittling other people, because you weren't there.. you simply weren't there.. also, i would like to correct something, not "belittling other people", just 1 single person, the one who pointed his finger..

maybe i wrote a rude post, but i dont recall insulting the lug, i did insult this person's "mouth".. im ok with the post not being published as it contains "bad words" not insults and i understand that, im currently waiting for the admin to send me the post so i can edit it -and point out where the insults were- so you can see for yourself..

if you want to talk about constructive arguments, then i guess you should re-read the second post on this thread, a constructive argument to me, is to point out what went wrong, not "who" did what wrong.. don't you agree? also, a constructive argument would try to cover all the problems and drawbacks.. not just the name of some person.. right?

also, i would like to point one more thing: ("this is EGLUG man"), yes, it is.. ever since the day i came in, no single person took anyone else's argument/question/decision/point-of-view seriously, even if it is to joke, you have to work really hard to make the people on channel reconsider listening to what you're saying, i dont understand why, but i dont care, it doesn't bother me i got used to it, but it's just not a thing to keep doing 24/7.. you said it yourself by the way, it makes you lose a lot of users.. it's one major reason why i left the lug, i dont want to be called "yet another flamer from #eglug"..

with all do respect, but this is how i see it, i know ill get flamed at for this last paragraph -as usual and as expected- but it's just what's happening..

anyways, one last thing, in front of each and every member of the lug who worked at the guc install fest 2006, and specially to phaeron, i would really really really appreciate if you would answer this question: why didn't you come up to me before/at/or 1 day after the fest telling me that i was useless, that i was a burden on the working members, that all i did was taking us/you back not forward? i really want to know why phaeron is pointing things at me 2 OR 3 MONTHS _AFTER_ THE FEST? maybe you thought i wasn't gonna know about it or something? (which is the most probable logical reason to me)..

thank you

phaeronix's picture

You really think I was

You really think I was afraid that you find about this thread ? You give yourself too much credit.

phaeronix's picture

what ?

I don't understand why people consider stating facts with names is flaming. In wikipedia there is a disambiguation page :

where it states that one of the definitions of "flame" is:

"A message sent over the internet with the deliberate intent to insult."

to read more evidence :

I never intended to insult, and I didn't do so, unlike others. And btw I requested from boody that he publish fred's post where he insulted me and eglug, but since it's against the aup he was unable to.

I don't think it's right to overlook our mistakes as a group just so that we don't upset people by mentioning their names. If we do that we will keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

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